Jesus Loves You: Meaningful Love, Part II
Permalink Posted on 06-28-2006 at 10:16:56 pm by Justin, 1168 words, 1730 views  

I concluded Meaningful Love with two questions. Below is my answer to the first. Armed with an understanding of love as a statement of value, supported by action, is the statement, "Jesus loves you," meaningful?

From what I can tell, Jesus and God do not love me. I’ve never been the recipient of any actions of love in any obvious or obscure way. Jesus and God have never had a conversation with me - this is despite voicing requests innumerate to have such conversations. I’ve never passed a test or gotten a promotion or won the lottery thanks to the assistance of the host of hosts or the man upstairs. Nothing has happened in my life to date that I can attribute to some supernatural force.

Should I be upset that God won't talk to me? Why won't he play basketball with me? Is God too good to share a cup of hot cocoa over a cool morning sunrise by my side? Perhaps I pissed God off. How? I don't know. I tried to make it work, but he was and is never there. I've shouted off cliffs for God to respond, and all I've ever heard in return was my echoing voice.

Since God refuses to interact with me in a manner consistent with my programming (programming supposedly written by God) as required by existing here in a material world (read: not supernatural), I have no choice but to conclude that God does not love me. I would further be so presumptuous to say that God doesn’t love you, either. If that is upsetting to hear, I apologize. However, if God does exists and he did create our existence, the historical record is pretty damning on his love for human beings. Or are all of the natural disasters and plagues the fault of mankind?

The Bible says, “For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Let’s break this love statement down.

God has created a means for us to be immortals, but his actions cost him his Son, Jesus. This statement is philosophically problematic. An omnipotent being does not have scarce resources that he must sacrifice. Why would God have to give anything up to give us something? If God gave something up, wouldn’t he cease to be God? And if God did make some exchange whereby we will benefit if we do x, y and z, why not be more direct about it instead of asking us to throw caution to the wind and believe statements written in a convoluted, contradictory document?

If God did love us so much why are we damned to eternal torment if we choose rational thought over faith? Furthermore, if you loved someone, would you send them to hell? When was the last time you made an ultimatum to someone you loved? I love you immensely, in fact some say I am love, but if you don’t believe in me (Despite having insufficient evidence to sustain such belief), you’re up shit creek. Too bad, so sad. I'm God and I make the rules.

Are these ideas coherent with any idea of love? They are clearly not coherent with love as a statement of value, supported by action.

Forgiveness is a cornerstone issue of the Christian faith. We have sinned and are beyond repair: Jesus fixed that problem. All you must do is request forgiveness (Note the inconsistency between the forgivness requirement and the belief requirement of John 3:16).

In relationships, if you wrong someone you love, you ask for their forgiveness. Assuming your actions were not too egregious and the wronged party believes he or she still has the capacity and will to love you, your forgiveness will come in short order.

You have to have wronged someone for their forgiveness to have meaning. How have you ever wronged God? Even choosing not to believe in God should not be an offense to God. If God had a heart to heart with me and then I adamantly continued believing that he did not exist, I could understand him being a little peeved. Otherwise, why should he be offended?

Furthermore, sinning doesn’t hurt God: a sin might hurt yourself or someone you love, but it doesn’t hurt God because it doesn’t impact God. Action is a two-way street. If you can’t interact with God (Talking to no one fails to constitute interaction), you can’t love God, either. You might say, "God hurts because you are his child: he hurts when you hurt." It makes for a nice soundbite, but if God really cared about my well being, he would talk to me, protect me from harm, and give me fatherly advice. As it is, if God is my figurative father, he should be asking for my forgiveness: he's the one who created me and then ran off for me to deal with the world on my own (Not that I mind, mind you, but you see my point).

Now you might say, “God is everywhere. He is in creation. By loving creation, I am loving God.” I see no problem with such an assertion (Although it begs the question, "Who created God? Super-God??"). Such a belief has important consequences: creation is the good and the bad. God is also behind the natural disasters, diseases, and non-human-based suffering, too. Or couldn't God have made it so we didn't suffer? What? Adam and Eve and original sin? I don't think so. God wouldn't be so arbitrary as to make all mankind suffer for the sins of one man and woman. And if he was so arbitrary, could you still respect him?

So God doesn’t love you, you can’t love him and statements about God loving us are meaningless. However, I think there are [at least] two Biblical passages about love that are potentially meaningful.

The first is referred to as one of the most important commandments, “To love your neighbor as yourself.” I see this scripture as the Biblical equivalent of the Golden Rule. Most people simply understand it to mean that you should love your neighbor. This clearly doesn’t make any sense. How can you love your neighbor as yourself if you don’t love yourself? You can’t. The statement hinges on the idea that you love yourself first. Secondly, if love requires action, not only can you not love everyone, but it doesn’t make sense to love everyone. Ponder this: if you could somehow donate your entire existence to others, how could you love yourself? Destroying the self is not an act of love.

The second potentially meaningful Biblical love-passage is, "God is love." My third, and final, part of Meaningful Love deals with the concept of God as love from an atypical angle: does love really make the world go ‘round? And if so, maybe God is love.

Comments, Pingbacks:

Comment from: Tommy [Visitor]
Seriously, nobody has anything to say about this. There were like a million comments about X3 and nothing on this?!? C'MON!

This is some serious food for thought and I think that it is a pretty well thought out argument that would be reason for pause for a lot of intelligent believers.
PermalinkPermalink 06-30-2006 @ 14:10
Comment from: halve [Member] Email
half of the problem is i am only capable comprehending one paragraph per hour. i actually do have some responses that will come later but for now i am in hotlanta until wednesday.
PermalinkPermalink 06-30-2006 @ 15:55
Comment from: Thomas [Visitor]
As you know, the vast majority of people that subscribe to Christianity were raised in their system of beliefs just as you and I were. It was presented as fact, not an idea.

I think it boils down to the fact that, despite any contradictory evidence or logical thinking, it's more comforting to think of an ultimate being that cares for them, watches out for them, and will take care of them.
I'm baffled by people's blind alleigance despite the physical contradictory evidence ('Good people' dying suddenly, people who we would all call strong Christians, impoverished drug addicted single mothers can crank out babies (miracles), yet two 'Christian' parents cannot seem to have a child, prayers for the well-being of a loved one go unanswered, etc). When presented with that evidence, the scripted answer is always given: "We can't understand God. You are to learn from this as He has a purpose".

To go against this loving, caring God is to give up this warm blanket that has given them peace of mind for years. Freud said that it would be inhumane to rob people of this 'blanket' should we ever find proof that there is no God.

I also think in some cases that laziness and ignorance are the defining factors, but I'll stop here.
PermalinkPermalink 07-02-2006 @ 08:45
Comment from: halve [Visitor]
Thomas - I am very tired at this moment so i'll keep it short. Your "evidence" isn't too impressive here amigo. If you read and understand the bible you'll see why. Any sin results in some type of death thus the decay of our bodies throughout life (evidence of a sinful world.) Nowhere in the bible does it say if you're a christian there will be no hard times and you will always be healthy etc. etc. so I don't see how you can call this contradictory evidence. ok, bedtime.
PermalinkPermalink 07-03-2006 @ 23:51
Comment from: lillian [Visitor]
Furthermore, sinning doesn’t hurt God: a sin might hurt yourself or someone you love, but it doesn’t hurt God because it doesn’t impact God.

When we hurt ourselves, we hurt God precisely because God loves us. It is similar, though not the same, as the way in which children that disobey their parents are punished. Often times the act of disobedience endangers the child. The parents punish the child as an act of love to protect the child and deter the child from behaving in ways which could be destructive.

I tried to make it work, but he was and is never there. I've shouted off cliffs for God to respond, and all I've ever heard in return was my echoing voice.

You wish to have a conversation with God in the same manner as you converse with people. But we communicate with God through Prayer and learn of His will through the process of Discernment.

Since God refuses to interact with me in a manner consistent with my programming (programming supposedly written by God) as required by existence here in the material world, I have no choice but to conclude that God does not love me.

God does not communicate with you in the manner in which you clearly have grown to expect. But that does not mean He does not wish to communicate with you. And it does not mean that He does not love you.
PermalinkPermalink 07-23-2006 @ 16:27
Comment from: Adam [Visitor] Email
Lillian, you isolated stuff that he said and pulled it out of context. Why is prayer the way we communicate with God? I have prayed and have not received any guidance or help from the being that I am supposedly talking to. Prayer is the mode in which we talk to God because it is what you were taught from a very young age that that is the way, the question "why?" is not answered.

As to the part about God hurting because your hurting, you again pulled this out of context. How do we know God is hurting? Furthermore, many so called sins don't seem to hurt anyone, including yourself. And most of the time those that are sinned against are hurt more than the sinner. If God loves everyone, how can this be? He created us, did he not? He could have fixed this issue.

The main question that he brings up here is that God created us and the way we are, supposedly, so why can't/won't he communicate with us in the manner that he gave us to understand? Why would God do so much in the world that has no apparent logic or reason behind it? Most of the time questions with God are answered with "no one can understand His will." That seems like a major cop-out. No where in this world can a person get away with that answer for very long, so why should God. It is just very confusing and I think it all needs to be updated.

PermalinkPermalink 09-06-2006 @ 13:23
Comment from: Chrissy [Visitor] Email · http://netnerds.net
This post is freakin awesome. I grew up Catholic but I have been agnostic for some time now. Recently my brother revealed to me that he too is agnostic. Our (seperate) conclusions mainly revolved around the absence of two-way communication.

Ever heard the saying: "If a person talks to God, he's religious. If God talks to him, he's psychotic...." Funny how that works.

I saw you posted a list of Biblical Contradictions. If you have the interest, check out the book "The Bible Tells Me So." It's an easy, fun and entertaining read about many of those contradictions.
PermalinkPermalink 09-06-2006 @ 17:47
Comment from: Lee [Visitor] Email
God does not speak to man orally anymore as this is what is brought out by the Bible. He provided Jesus as a ransom sacrifice because corresponded to the perfect life Adam lost.He allows, not causes, suffering to happen,because He is allowing everyone to see that he alone has the right to rule mankind. Mankind has dominated man to his own injury, according to the Bible.You see in the Garden of Eden Satan challenged God's right to rule.Tell me if God had just destroyed Adam and Eve and Eve, would really give a proper answer to the issue Satan had brought up? God is allowing time to show angels, mankind and all creation that He alone can rule mankind onto the path of life. The Bible contains all the guidance we need in this time.Just check and see if it doesn't offer a solution to all of life's problems.If He didn't love us why would he make a way out for us to have everlasing life? The Bible says "the meek shall inherit the Earth"
PermalinkPermalink 09-06-2006 @ 20:02
Comment from: Lee [Visitor] Email
Any answers we need to to be answered by God can be found in the Bible.The BIble itself says@2Timothy3:16, "All scriptures is inspired of God and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight,for disciplining in righteousness, so that the man of God may be fully competent completely equipped for every good work." Read the Psalms and see the strengthening effect this can give. Inorder to benefit from scriptures one must look at the lessons, principles, it carries or brings out. I am a teenager (near 20)and I do not see the Bible as being out-dated. I think it is very practical for everyday life.
PermalinkPermalink 09-06-2006 @ 20:17
Comment from: Marc Holt [Visitor] Email
The fact is, ANY religion is wrong thinking and dangerous. It robs you of the intellectual curiosity to question why the world is like it is, and it incites hatred between conflicting ideologies. Read my two articles below and then tell me what you think after reading them. I'd be very interested to hear differing points of view...even if you disagree. That's what we atheists are all about:

http://whiteboysinasia.com/?p=412
and
http://whiteboysinasia.com/?p=404

I will be writing more on this topic, so stay tuned.

Cheers!
Marc
PermalinkPermalink 09-06-2006 @ 23:02
Comment from: halve [Visitor] Email
marc, are you serious? you think if you're religious you don't question the world how it is? I question stuff all of the time. There are many christian authors these days who question the traditions, beliefs, etc. that have been set up by humans. Brian Mclaren is one of these many authors and I thoroughly enjoy reading these types of books, check out New kind of Christian.
PermalinkPermalink 09-07-2006 @ 10:21

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