The more details about this coming out the more awful I feel... I've got this sick to my stomach feeling about this. My heart goes out to you and all the students at VT

I'm sure the victims who were trapped in that building with the doors chained, appreciate the fact that you are blaming them for not carrying a fully loaded handgun with them at all times.

News flash for you: You aren't John McClane, and this ain't hollywood.

I'm sure the victims who were trapped in that building with the doors chained, appreciate the fact that you are blaming them for not carrying a fully loaded handgun with them at all times.

I don't think that was Aaron's point. Quite the contrary, don't you think the victims in that building wished someone could have taken the murderer out sooner? Perhaps had another trained student had a firearm, he/she might have been able to stop this psychotic killer. Couple this idea with the legislation that was passed preventing legitimate concealed-carry by students and you see that had concelaed-carry been legit, and had a law-abiding student been carrying, he/she might have been able to largely prevent this horrible tragedy.

Aaron concluded:

Government protection that makes the vast bulk of the population docile and dependent still doesn't work, and never will. Sadly, the more this system brings about disasters like today's, the more people clamor for more of the same "solutions".

Was he being too subtle? Where did he blame the victims?

Was he being too subtle? Where did he blame the victims?

Maybe he means that by saying "people will clamor for more of the same solutions", I was also including the victims in "people", and therefore blaming them.

I suppose that could be true -- some victims likely will demand more stringent gun control (how you get more stringent than "no guns allowed", I don't know); but that wasn't at all my point. My point was that, if anything, the university bureaucrats and state politicians were to blame for totally eliminating the possibility of concealed carry defenders assisting in this situation.

Some improvement wouldn't require that such people be veritable Rambos; they'd just need to transform the situation from a turkey shoot to a battle of equals (or comparables).

Some improvement wouldn't require that such people be veritable Rambos; they'd just need to transform the situation from a turkey shoot to a battle of equals (or comparables).

Isn't this the same argument made against decriminalizing drugs? If it's "legal" then everybody will start abusing it.

Honestly, 33 people isn't that statistically significant. Just like 3000 in 9/11 and 1800 or so in Katrina. The real tragedy is that in our "free" society, innocent people aren't free to defend themselves.

As usual, the response to this will be more laws that inhibit those who will follow them because criminals by definition break the laws.

I think that having some armed students in those classrooms may have made yesterday's massacre less severe - clearly he could have been taken out earlier. But don't you think that having an armed student body will lead to many more accidental shootings, arguments-turned-manslaughter, and the like? The numbers of one- and two-man homicides that could accrue from letting people carry concealed weapons in densely populated areas would far outweigh the number of people murdered yesterday. People's access to guns shouldn't be so uninhibited that they can access one on little more than a whim, and I don't think yesterday's tragedy should be reason to advocate a vigilante student body.

PS - Neal, did you notice that one of the victims went to high school at LHS?

Matt, I had not heard that. Pretty awful. Just read about him - Ryan Clark. He was an RA at VT. That really drove it home for me - being an RA at UGA was, for the most part, cakewalk. Can't imagine something like this happening on my watch.

If it's confirmed that the shooter was wearing a bullet-proof vest, does that change things for you? As a fellow VT graduate (guess that makes us relevant) I have a hard time imagining an armed engineering student leaping into action and pulling off a head-shot. The shooter was gruesomely talented, had the element of surprise, and had the element of being a homicidal maniac. The chance that one of VT's five gun nerds that would pack heat if allowed would be in one of the classrooms and accomplish something good are absurdly small. Meanwhile, the culture of guns in Virginia and their ready availability has obvious contributions to the attack. Pitch to boing boing all you want, but you'll soon be fighting an uphill battle against greater gun control.

The Virginia Tech incident, rather massacre, is an example of buggling by the VT administrators who would rather close school for snow storms than homicides. It is clear that the Pres. of VT is trying to cover his behind, plain and simple. There is simply no excuse for leaving a criminal to roam a campus for hours on end without protecting that campus. If they had closed the school, and followed up on the two murders from 7:15 am, they might very well have started an investigation which could have caught the suspect without 31 more deaths, countless injured, and damage to the school reputation, to say nothing about the impact on the larger community.

Doc Barnett:

I appreciate your feedback (if that really is you, and not just a masquerading CS student).

No, a bullet-proof vest wouldn't change my feelings on the matter. Aside from the fact that there's no intrinsic reason a trained concealed-carry student (or professor) couldn't achieve a head-shot, it's still the same probabilities game.

I would feel much safer knowing I'm in a crowd that might have some peace-loving armed vigilantes, rather than being passive fish in a barrel.

I'm not sure how the "culture of guns" has much bearing on a student from South Korea, via Northern Virginia.

If so, certainly we got the "bad elements" of that culture. But the current policy rules out the "good elements" entirely.

Hello all and pardon my lack of blogging experience if I violate some protocol I am not aware of. I am deeply sadden by the loss of lives and believe that the focus of what happened needs to focus on the individual that killed these people and how this could have been stopped. In reading the thread I can't help but notice how this conversation is focusing not on what motivated the shooter, but more about right to carry, etc. I am concerned that if people don't focus on the the killer and what caused him to take others lives we miss the real issue. Here is a person that was previously identified by an instructor and was reported to authorities and could have been interecepted and possibly helped. But 'hands were tied' until he actually did something. Shouldn't that be our area of concern?

Here is a person that was previously identified by an instructor and was reported to authorities and could have been interecepted and possibly helped. But 'hands were tied' until he actually did something. Shouldn't that be our area of concern?

Certainly, it's the primary concern. Why do you want to depend on authorities that's constantly having their hands tied bureaucratically?

"No, a bullet-proof vest wouldn't change my feelings on the matter. Aside from the fact that there's no intrinsic reason a trained concealed-carry student (or professor) couldn't achieve a head-shot, it's still the same probabilities game."

Is your armed student going to shout "Headshot! PwNED!" too?

John Cole had an excellent write up today on this insanity of those preaching ideology over reason.

http://www.balloon-juice.com/?p=8095

Is your armed student going to shout "Headshot! PwNED!" too?

HUH?... I wonder how many people get shot at a shooting range where, literally, everybody is packing. I wonder how many of them shout "PwNED!" as they're practicing?

The other steve:

Is your armed student going to shout "Headshot! PwNED!" too?

John Cole had an excellent write up today on this insanity of those preaching ideology over reason.

You only read it as "ideology" because that converts the argument to a straw man, which is easier for you.

The fact remains, having guns banned even for licensed concealed-carry didn't save any lives that day. And if they had been permitted, it certainly wouldn't have helped the attacker.

What are your armed statists going to do -- ban guns (for anyone but themselves) even harder?

Bpatters:

I am deeply sadden by the loss of lives and believe that the focus of what happened needs to focus on the individual that killed these people and how this could have been stopped.

Maybe you read the wrong blog post.

Pretty much anything goes in the blogosphere, but generally it is appreciated that you read the right post before commenting.

Here is a person that was previously identified by an instructor and was reported to authorities and could have been interecepted and possibly helped. But 'hands were tied' until he actually did something. Shouldn't that be our area of concern?

The fact that none of these details had come out when I wrote the original post notwithstanding, there are many things to be concerned about and areas for improvement here.

Still, very early-stage prevention is not always feasible. So this guy was quiet and weird and morbid. That doesn't always translate into a problem, let alone an intervention, let alone a successful one.

Failing that, I'd rather be able to pack some heat, or rest assured with the possibility that there might be some good-natured vigilante around me doing so instead.

Just remember, freedoms, when the are taken away, are ALWAYS taken away in the name of public safety.

I am confused that anyone who despises the Patriot Act can also favor outlawing gun ownership.

Thanks for the feedback Aaron.
In short, I agree with your position. I have lived in many western states where I have always felt safe knowing someone around me had possession of a gun if needed. It is an effective deterrent if you think the other guy can defend him/herself(I now live in NJ - different story here). Clearly anyone 'carrying' when caught in this situation would be in a much better position to defend themselves if there is no escape alternative. I also completely agree with FTM regarding the loss of freedoms. This is why I raised the point of focusing on the killer, not the gun. Unfortunately, when these types of events occur the first thing politicians and anti-gunners do is cry for yet another worthless gun law. Personal security is a 'responsibility' that should not be restricted by legislation.

- Having attended numerous ranges and shows, I can attest that people behave much more politely when everyone is armed. Quick test of yourself: walk 10 feet on a curb. Now walk 10 feet on the same curb 100 feet in the air. Those who think armed society is a dangerous society are wannabes, with no clue to reality.

- It is not so much about who and how would have made a head shot, but who would walk-in guns blasting into a building with possibly tens of people "packing heat".

- Body vest matters not in this case. Why? Because, the shooter had put in on for fashion, not purpose. His purpose required none. If he was purposeful, he should have had a helmet, not vest, because he risked head injury and not return fire. So, had he caught a bullet in the vest, he would unload in his pants and run away. Besides, inside a building, who (forget trained licensed persons) wouldn't manage a head shot?
I have taken girls who never fired a gun to the range. Half of them manage a head shot from 10 feet away just fine the very first time they fire a gun.

- Scarcity is the power driving drug trade. Prohibition enforces scarcity. There's really nothing mystical behind taboo desirability. That is of course if you follow real economics, not the BS that is pushed onto you by a propaganda machine.

I have taken girls who never fired a gun to the range. Half of them manage a head shot from 10 feet away just fine the very first time they fire a gun.

Did the girls then shout "Headshot! PwNED!"

Well. They did shout out something, I don't remember now, but I am sure it was't what you asked. Because, if they did, I would slap them on their lips for using junk language like that,and taking example from game wannabes and not from real men. I would surely remember that happening. Most likely they shouted something like: - "Look! I did it! I am going to buy a gun.". So, no, they didn't.

Copy of Letter to Dr. Phillip Thompson of NRL

Dear Phil:

I am very glad to have received this email from you. As you might recall, my son had attended Tech as both a undergrad and graduate student until a few years ago. He still visits the campus because of interactions with students and professors on that campus. Since Aaron does research in the areas in computer science which overlaps with that of some of his former professors, he is very intimately tied to that campus even today.

Since this ordeal began I have kept some very late hours trying to gather information about what ensued and the behavior of the officials at VT. I have been able to get much inside information (including from Aaron) about what really is the pattern of the administration at VT, as well as of the individual perpetuating the massacre.

I want you to know that there was absolutely no reason for this massacre to happen. The VT administration has continually made bad decisions regarding this student Seung Hui Cho ever since he arrived on campus, including his writing very disturbed poetry scribes, conflicts with his professors, his following female students, his entry into mental health facilities, gathering records of his mental illness, and many many more substantial incidents.

The state of Virginia itself is complicit in this massacre, refusing to hold even the most mentally disturbed individuals inside its mental health facilities, or to take them off the streets permanently. I know this personally, having a middle child who is very mentally ill, having been diagnosed more than a decade ago with bipolar mental illness. This child's illness is very severe, making her probably at the level of being one tenth of one percent of those in the general population with moderate clinical depression, bipolar, or schizophrenia. (For your information, since it is estimated by most authorities as seen in scientific reports that a few percent of the general population has some sort of clinical mental illness at any given moment in time, that this means in a population of 100,000 people, there are 3 severe conditions. In a population of 300,000,000, or 300 million, this gives a total number of such people of 9000 or nine thousand really severe cases, cases probably capable of doing the same damage as S-H Cho on Monday April 16, 2007.)

Even though this child has roamed the streets screaming at the top of her lungs, kept boy friends who use drugs like cocaine, stolen items out of houses,and had a parent beaten up by a boy friend while watching, the state of Virginia refuses to do anything. The state officials merely rely that this girl has to of her own volition have her self declared mentally incapable, or she has to herself check herself into a mental health facility, or herself see the psychiatric workers when she has appointments.

However, it is the very nature of the severely mentally ill to have precisely those characteristic mental states whereby they believe they do not need help, perhaps thinking that it is everyone else who is wrong. As you can see from the simple calculations I have done above, this problem will not go away either locally in Virginia, nor nationally.

What is clearly wrong is that in the United States we have cleared out and closed most of our mental hospitals many decades ago, and never replaced them with a comparable number of spaces in other facilities today which can permanently hold and isolate such disturbed mentally ill people from the rest of the populace. This has caused families of the severely mentally ill to have to act as holding facilities for these children and adults, which they do not possess adequate tools to implement.

It has been the intent of the state legislators in Virginia and in most of all of the other states, to avoid the costs of properly maintaining a civilian population not traumatized by its most mentally ill members. This has been done to allow the state legislators to gather taxes for the discretionary spending of these remote representatives of the state populations, at the expense of the welfare of the citizens. Essentially, the state legislators are playing government, with no deep concern for the welfare of the citizenry.

The same problem exists in the national policies and representatives on the hill, namely in the Senate, House, Executive and Judicial branches of government. Although it was fitting that President Bush visited the campus at Virginia Tech in Blacksburg, Virginia, much more is needed than offering up prayers for the dead students who had been massacred, or their parents, or the immediate families or friends.

We are way past prayer. Prayer only has meaning when it is followed by meaningful action. This nation, from the top down, and the bottom up, must radically change its treatment of and help for the severely mentally ill.

I most humbly submit these thoughts to you and anyone else who might read this message. It grieves me greatly that so many fine young women and men died on Monday needlessly because of a failed system of dealing with the severely mentally ill. It grieves me greatly that a few fine professors of math, engineering and the liberal arts died in Monday's massacre. It makes me hurt with tremendous anguish to know that one of these fine professors, a Romanian survivor of the Holocaust, who emigrated to the United States, should die at the hands of an evil mentally ill 23 year old man.

In closing, I ask that you consider all that I have mentioned, and accept my heartfelt thankfulness that Mark Twigg's son, Jeff, was spared his life.

Cliff

__________________________
Dr. Clifford M. Krowne
Naval Research Laboratory

Letter From Dr. Phil Thompson to Members of NRL Staff:

Many of you have asked me about Mark Twigg's son at Virginia Tech. Mark called me last night so I now have the story. Mark gave me permission to send out this email.

Mark's son, Jeff, was in the engineering classroom when the shooter arrived. His professor, Prof. Liviu Librescu, blocked the door which permitted students to escape by the windows. As you know by now, the professor sacrificed his life to save his students. Jeff jumped from the window and broke his leg (tibia and fibia) in the fall. He has been operated on and a plate has been placed in his leg. Unfortunately during the ordeal he got pneumonia and was placed in the intensive care unit. Jeff has responded well to treatment. When I talked to Mark at 9 pm on Wednesday, Jeff was sleeping easily and was being removed from ICU. As you might expect, knowing Jeff and Va Tech, Jeff has been surrounded by both professors and friends and his spirits are high. Mark and Harriet are staying at the hotel on the Va Tech campus and don't know when they will return home.

I must say that Mark sounded well too, much calmer than I would have been after such an experience.

Dr. Phillip E. Thompson
Naval Research Laboratory

What is clearly wrong is that in the United States we have cleared out and closed most of our mental hospitals many decades ago, and never replaced them with a comparable number of spaces in other facilities today which can permanently hold and isolate such disturbed mentally ill people from the rest of the populace. This has caused families of the severely mentally ill to have to act as holding facilities for these children and adults, which they do not possess adequate tools to implement.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/asylums/

Hi users and friends i am again back as a new member but i have lots of views for you topic.As you know by now, the professor sacrificed his life to save his students. Jeff jumped from the window and broke his leg (tibia and fibia) in the fall. He has been operated on and a plate has been placed in his leg.

Mack

http://www.drugtreatments.com/vermont